In the fifth installment of game meta series, we focused on the Character MUs and how they are in their current state. Also this time, changed our respondents so we get different points of view! For this, we have 575, AkeoPo, Andyroo, Enders J, Fanlee, Karolkjx, Linkorz, and Shen Yuan answering today!
As usual, we have got three main regions represented – but this time, with different players!
And here are today’s questions:
Which current SC6 MU do you consider to be most skill-based (and/or honest) and why? No mirror matches, please!
575: In the current patch, I assume that mid-rewarded characters fighting against high damage characters (NM, Astar, Sieg, Talim, Maxi etc) to be the skill-based MUs.
Because the player that uses mid-rewarded characters should have lots of knowledge to deal with the high-rewarded ones. The knowledge contains not only spacing but also frame-punishes, whiff-punishes for high attacks and slow recovering moves, and specific stances. And all the high-rewarded characters do are waiting for one shot or making guesses, which leads to the condition that mid-rewarded ones have to make tons of correct decisions to keep up with the HP of the high damage characters.
The concept mentioned above is just an overall environment, so there will be few exceptions. Btw, after so many patches and developments by players, I think there is no low-rewarded character.
AkeoPo: To be honest, I don’t think there is an honest MU in this game.
Each character has a lot of good skills, so if you make a mistake, you can end up losing one-sidedly. I think this is the case for all MUs.
Andyroo: From my Groh perspective Id say a match up such as Geralt, Zas, Cervantes and Hwang.
They can function in similar ways being neutral heavy characters with good containment. Alot of their strengths come from calculated reads and conditioning which when pulled off correctly shows the skills of the player and Groh vs any of these MUs would be a good match to watch for clear decision making.
Enders J: I think the MU that is most skill-based is a tough question to answer. I feel like the way I’d best describe it. Is any MU between these characters in this list are the highest expression of skill The characters are, Sophitia/Cassandra/Cervantes/Geralt/Kilik/Tira/Xianghua. So anytime these characters fight eachother, there is very little forced mixups or guesses going on outside of grabs and they all have ways of playing around neutral without needing to default to one or two moves to break neutral every time they’re in range.
Fanlee: I believe Mitsurugi is the character that needs the most skill to make a comeback. In general, I think he has the worst MUs, like we’ve seen in the UFL event with Mitsurugi/Setsuka. I don’t think there’s a clearly honest character. Everyone has some sort of trick or gimmick.
Karolkjx: I think that Hwang in general demands a lot from the player, he is a very complex character. It has resources for very specific situations, so it requires a lot of skill from the player to adapt to each MU properly.
Linkorz: It’s hard to say for this one. I’ve always really enjoyed watching Skyll and Yuttoto play each other, as I think those matches are a really pure expression of Soulcalibur fundamentals. But I’m not sure if I’d say that’s intrinsic to Mitsu and Voldo. If I really had to pick one matchup, I would probably say Cervantes vs Geralt comes to mind. This is a matchup I played a lot in the past, and it plays really heavily off of both character’s understanding of movement, and how it can be used both offensively and defensively. There is a damage discrepancy in the favor of Cervantes, but Geralt’s easier access to low commitment long range pokes evens this out.
Shen Yuan: Kilik, Sophie, Mitsu vs the rest. They have NO gimmicks. Honest mixups and punishment. Kilik and Sophie can deal with the whole cast.
Is there any MU in SC6 you consider “really bad” (let’s say 3-7 or worse)?
- NM 2 – 8 Sieg (If NM is “mass product” version; otherwise, it’s 5 – 5)
- NM 3 – 7 Astar
- Sieg 3 – 7 Taki
- Sieg 3 – 7 Talim
- Groh 3 – 7 Talim
- Amy 3 – 7 Sieg
- Azwel 2 – 8 Talim
- Azwel 3 – 7 Maxi
- Talim 3 – 7 NM
- Talim 3 – 7 Taki
- Maxi 3 – 7 NM
- Astar 3 – 7 Zas
- Astar 3 – 7 Talim
- Astar 3 – 7 Taki
- Mina 3 – 7 Sieg
- Raph 3 – 7 NM
- Taki 3 – 7 NM
AkeoPo: I don’t think there are any MUs with 3-7. Before Nightmare was buffed, I thought he and Siegfried had a close 3-7 disadvantage, but now it doesn’t make any sense.
If I look for 4-6 MU, I can’t think of anything other than the match between Raphael and Astaroth. That’s because it doesn’t feel like there are many disadvantages in the character’s compatibility.
Andyroo: I dont throw the 3:7 MU card around often because I dont think its a productive mentality to have but FUCK ME no match up gave me more nightmares than Zas vs Siegfried.
Zas best containment tools are completely beaten by BaseHold aGI stance, every hori is weapon based or high (bar the seeable, no reward, unsafe 1K) and vs a character with safe evasive tools like 22A or his roulette spin makes pressing your advantage feel very dangerous.
Top it off how difficult of a task it is to whiff punish Siegfried, if the opponent knows the Zas MU you gotta hope the Zas player is ready to have to play the most clean and precise match of calibur they have ever played in their life while the Seig player has fun using iagA, aB, 22A, 3A4 and grabs all day.
Enders J: Hmm, maybe Astaroth vs someone. I think Astaroth is the character with the potential for the worst MU’s in the game. But I’m not sure who. other than him no I don’t think anything is 3-7 or worse.
Fanlee: I think Raph vs Asta (bad for Asta) is one of the worst MUs, also Maxi vs NM (bad for Maxi). Both because of the pressure and the punishes they can do to their opponent’s attacks.
Karolkjx: Astaroth vs Seong Mina. I think this match is very unfavorable for Astaroth. Because she punishes more severely and he doesn’t punish as effectively, which gives Mina’s player more opportunities to abuse certain moves. She has LH when lowering the grab, so the Astaroth player is more likely to take that LH than other characters.
Linkorz: I don’t think there are any 3-7 matchups in SC6. Some of the really bad ones that come to mind are Groh vs Astaroth (Groh favor), Amy vs Maxi (Amy favor), and Setsuka vs Mitsu (Setsuka favor). I think these are all 6-4 though, and notice they all involve characters that I play, so there’s definitely some bias involved.
Shen Yuan: Oddly I cannot think of a matchup that terrible in sc6. Maybe mitsu vs setsuka or astaroth vs groh?
What is your own general approach to MUs? From the initial analysis up till solving the main MU issues?
575: In most of the conditions, I use NM (of course lol). But when the opponents use Mina or Astar, I will switch to Sieg right away.
It’s very hard for NM to deal with Astar, because some of Astar’s main moves (low attacks excluded) can easily restrict NM’s options, such as:
- 6k(-12, armor breaking, RO and wall combo potentials, tech-crouch),
- 66k(armor breaking, tech-crouch, hard to sidestep for fat NM),
- 6b(armor breaking, backstep killer, high reward),
- 66b(armor breaking, backstep killer, high reward),
- 6a+b(-12, sidestep killer, high reward),
- not to mention those command grabs.
NM Astar MU is a pure guessing game, which will sometimes put NM himself in great danger.
Most of those disadvantages can be solved by using Sieg. Unlike NM, Sieg has better frame advantages, safer options, smaller hitbox and is stronger in defensive whiff punishes (CE, a:Bh, WR Bh etc). Sieg fighting other characters may be more conservative, but in Astar’s case, he could be more aggressive and handy due to faster AGA recovery and tech-crouching moves.
In NM Mina MU, NM can actually fight with Mina, but it is not as handy as Sieg, because NM’s recovery is slower and tends to be more aggressive than Sieg, which will often create RO potentials for Mina in certain stages. In Mina’s case, Sieg can be both more aggressive and stronger(more handy) in whiff punishes. Therefore, the reason might be similar to NM Astar MU.
AkeoPo: If I feel absurd when dealing with an opponent, I try to clearly define whether it is an absurdity from the opponent’s play or absurdity from MU between characters. Usually, it’s because there weren’t that many bad MUs when I thought about it, and I think it can be overcome with a little effort.
If the opponent’s play is absurd by countering my play, I do research while watching the video in which I lost or the opponent’s match. The absurdity that comes from MU between characters introduces and implements what I find out by prioritizing practice in training and later playing against players who use those characters.
If there is no progress even after doing this, ask the players around you and practice again.
Andyroo: Well the great thing about Groh for the most part is how effective his neutral game and basic tools are which allows me to not have to over-complicate most match ups.
Use the safe stuff, keep it simple with offense choices anduse movement/CH tools/evasive options as I adapt to my opponents way of playing thoughout the match.
I have recently got myself a notebook where I jot down useful tidbits of information about each MU as a reminder before a set such as: how to punish their common moves, moves I should use more/less of and any dangerous positions to be mindful like RO, RRO or powerful w! tools.
I would highly encourage others give this a go, my productivity in training mode improved greatly as I could also jot down problem moves/situations and actually remember to lab them perhaps add them to my MU notes.
Enders J: My approach generally is to understand the spacing. I figure out when I can or can’t move vs their pressure, I figure out when they can or can’t move vs my pressure. I figure out answers to certain moves at certain ranges. It’s almost entirely about how to control space for me. For example. I know that after my Cerv A6 on block vs Mina, I cannot backstep or sidestep without risking her 6A lethal hit, I also know that she can backstep all my attacks afterward safely. But, she does not have the range to do fc1k or grab me, so I can safely hold guard completely after my a6 and not worry about her having immediate pressure.
Fanlee: I ask in the Spanish SC Discord friends to help me with my MUs as it helps me learning. I prefer learning through trial and error against good players of a certain character. Sometimes, some training as well. What I look for, since Maxi is a stance character, which stance is more beneficial for me in that specific MU rather than going for a generic punish/option.
Karolkjx: My general method for MU is to make a safer game and refine my gameplay. Some matchups that I find very unfavorable I prefer to train another character and do more specific training for this MU
Linkorz: This is also a hard question for me. I guess I play it until I notice something that either interferes heavily with my own strategy, or a strategy the opponent has that is unique and I can’t solve intuitively with my strategy. Then, I get lazy and don’t play it. Once a tournament comes up where I know I’ll have to deal with the character, I find spending time talking to someone who plays the character really helps me. There’s only so much I can find through labbing, and talking over both objective counterplay and more abstract interactions/gameplan with someone else can add a lot to my understanding.
Ultimately, though, the thing that helps me the most is just playing it until my understanding becomes intuitive.
Shen Yuan: You must know your strengths as a player and the strengths of your character. This is super important. Then you think of the matchup and how the strengths can play into it. Is it block punishment? Is it whiff baiting at a certain range? What is the opposing matchup good at? Its quite a different process for each matchup. For some matchups, playing the other character can really help. You get an idea of what players of a certain character really hate and you leverage on that. Then you need to assess the flowchart of a character’s stance, and things you can do to negate most options and even out the risk reward.
To add: you need to know the game and character meta you are up against. Sometimes you can come up with weird solutions. For example keeping out a rushdown character can be a bad idea. I know this can be counter to logic. Why not keep out a rushdown character? But bear in mind rushdown characters are focused on anti defence and sometimes that is so powerful. Not letting them play the ant zoning game shifts the context and makes them uncomfortable
BONUS: Was there any MU that was really bad for you in the past but you managed to solve it convincingly?
575: To be honest, it was NM Mina before I picked Sieg as my second main.
AkeoPo: In the past, I thought Tira was at a disadvantage in matchups between Kilik and Tira and Xianghua and Tira because of some players, but I just concluded that my play wasn’t good. I did not only refer to Soulcalibur, but also referenced other fighting games and researched various things, and the answer was often found.
Andyroo: After only 10 months or so of using Groh Im still very much learning the MUs (hence the notebook) and thus I cant really say Ive ‘mastered’ any MU.
I still feel Ive made the right call with my character switch, simpler gameplans seem the way more for me and I think the Groh vs Siegfried MU is definitely a much better one than it is with Zas thats for sure lol
Enders J: Near the start of the game I used to think Cerv vs Talim was heavily unfavored for Cerv, but over time I think I solved it to the point that for a long time, Talim was the easiest MU in the game for me. It’s gotten better for her now, but Cerv definitely has so many very powerful tools vs Talim.
Fanlee: There were many characters like that due to my lack of knowledge of Maxi’s stances and how to connect through them in S1. NM, Azwel and Raph were a problem before, but I feel more confident against them now that I know how the stances work. I still have some problems with Taki, though.
Karolkjx: From my experience, Ivy was the character I had the most problems with. It was very difficult for me to approach and react against CS/SS. With training and playing with several players, I managed to develop better strategies for approach, have a more solid defense, and be able to punish certain moves better. Today I have much better results, although I still find this MU annoying to deal with.
Linkorz: The one that stands out the most to me is Astaroth. I was getting really frustrated fighting him in an online environment during covid, since the gameplan I would normally apply offline against him just wasn’t working. I knew Icychains thought Groh washed Astaroth, but I just didn’t see it at the time. Then, I decided to pick Groh on a whim of frustration/resignment when I was up against Rikuto in an NLBC. I still didn’t know what to do in the MU, but I knew I wasn’t going to win with Siegfried, so I messaged Icychains before the match and asked him for a quick rundown of what to do. It took me a game to figure out what he meant by “just mash 66A lol”, but it started to come together and I managed to win that set. I haven’t lost to an Astaroth player in tournament since.
Shen Yuan: X vs Seong Mina. You can ask Jason and Sandman how I exploited the matchup. I dont think they ever found X so troublesome. I had tremendous issues with the Mina matchup that I decided to play her and figure out the gaps and what is very annoying. I realised X can block punish every key move of mina although the execution needed practice. Minas moves to push the opponent out are very slow and X has good and fast launchers.
Thank you all for your answers!